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From last time

From last time. Three kinds of good Glaucon’s claim that justice is good as a means ----We act justly to get the benefits of seeming to be just The ring of Gyges thought experiment shows us that we if we can avoid the disadvantages, we would be unjust when it serves our interests.

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From last time

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  1. From last time • Three kinds of good • Glaucon’s claim that justice is good as a means ----We act justly to get the benefits of seeming to be just The ring of Gyges thought experiment shows us that we if we can avoid the disadvantages, we would be unjust when it serves our interests

  2. We need to first discover what justice is • Socrates: Justice is easier to discover in a city, then in an individual, so lets discover what justice is in a city first, then we can better see how justice applies to individuals. • So they begin to discuss what an ideal city would be like

  3. The principle of specialization • People have different natural talents. A well run city will have each person do what they are by nature best suited for. • If you work at one task regularly you will get better at that task

  4. 372a-372c Socrates describes an ideal city. • But Glaucon objects.

  5. The first ideal city lacks luxuries, it is a simple city. • Socrates says while the simple city still strikes him as ideal, it might be useful to look into a wealthy, “feverish,” city.

  6. What new thing do we get with a wealthy, feverish city? • WAR! • We need warriors. • Following the principle of specialization, these warriors need to be those who are best suited for the task, a professional army. • They also need to be trained appropriately.

  7. The three classes The warriors will be those best suited to be in the military class But there also needs to be a class of rulers. These too will be people best suited to rule The city will be composed of three classes: Guardians, auxilliaries, and producers. Each composed of people who are naturally suited for their task

  8. The upper two classes • Will live communally, eat together, will not be allowed material goods except for their simple clothes and weapons. • Socrates thinks this will help keep the upper classes from becoming corrupt.

  9. The myth of the metals • The city will prosper as long as everyone stays in their appropriate class. • Each is to be taught they have a kind of metal in their souls—gold for rulers, silver for the warriors, bronze or iron for the producers • They will also be taught that if the metals ever mix (if a a non-gold souled person became a ruler) the city will perish.

  10. Adeimantus’ objection • People will not be happy in this ideal city, especially the rulers and warriors. • Socrates’ responds that these people will actually be happiest. But in any case, his concern is with constructing an ideal city as a whole. It would not be appropriate to give a part of the city a happiness that is not appropriate to it.

  11. The city is moderate because of a harmony between the parts. Each will agree as to who will rule and be ruled. • The city is just because of the principle of specialization. Each part performs its natural function • It is because of justice that the city exhibits the other three virtues.

  12. Justice in the soul • By analogy, Socrates claims that justice in the soul be each part of the soul performing its natural function. Reason will rule, Spirit will aid reason, and the appetites will be in check • But in order to say this, he needs to show that the soul is divided into three parts

  13. The principle of opposites • No one thing can have opposite properties • So if the soul at the same time exhibits oppostite properties, this shows there are at least two distinct parts • Socrates needs to show reason, spirit, and appetite are distinct from each other

  14. Reason and Appetite • I desire to drink, and desire not to drink. • Appetite desires to drink, but reason can tell me not to. (similar arguments can be given for hunger, sex etc) Therefore, appetite is distinct from reason

  15. Spirit and appetite • Leontious desires to look at dead bodies, he gives in to his desire, but feels repulsion at the same time. • This shows spirit can rebel against appetite, desiring the opposite. So its distinct

  16. Spirit and Reason • You can be angry at your friend, but reason holds you back • Children and animals are spirited, but do not have reason • Therefore, reason and spirit are distinct

  17. Is this argument any good • Are the examples really examples of opposite desires, or conflicting desires. • Maybe the best way of describing these different desires is that they conflict, not that they are opposites. The desire to eat ice cream and desire not to be overweight are conflicting but not opposite desires.

  18. Justice and Conventional morality • Is there any reason to suppose that the person who is just in Socrates’ sense will also act justly? The definition of justice does not say anything about how such an ideally just person will act

  19. Individual and Civic Justice • In the ideal city, only the top class is really ruled by reason. • But would it not be better to have a society in which every member is ideally just? • Maybe this is not practical • In one sense everyone in the ideal city obeys reason, but some do by obeying the rulers, others by obeying an internal rationality.

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