www.ACFE.com (800) 245-3321 / +1 (512) 478-9000

1. Association Of Certified Fraud Examiners Austin, Tx Professional Interview Techniques John Bovaird CISA, CFE, ACS, ALB of Bovaird Consulting LLC bovairdbusiness@wt.net 832/457-1624 www.ACFE.com (800) 245-3321 / +1 (512) 478-9000

2. Visual Accessing Cues The first time "Visual Accessing Cues" were discussed may have been by Richard Bandler and John Grinder in their book "Frogs into Princes: Neuro Linguistic Programming (NLP) ": 2

3. Note the Difference Between This Smile and the Next One A forced or polite smile only involves the area about the mouth

4. See it? A natural smile involves numerous facial groups: forehead, cheeks, jaw, and about the mouth. Plus, the eyes become squished. 4

5. When asked a question, a "normal" right-handed person looks in the following directions. Up and to their Left indicates Visual Remembered (Vr) If asked "What color was the first house you lived in?“ … Eye movement would be up & to the left while searching to “Visually Remember" the color of their first home.

6. When asked a question, a "normal" right-handed person … continued. Up and to their right indicates: Visually Constructed Images (Vc) When told to "Imagine a purple buffalo“ .., Eye movement would be up & to the right while searching for the answer and "Visually Construct" a purple buffalo in their mind. 6

7. To their Right indicates Auditory Constructed (Ac) Instruct someone to: "Try to create the highest sound pitch possible in your head“. Eye movement would be to their right while searching for an answer as they (in an auditory-sense) construct the sound they’ve never heard.

8. To their Left Indicates Auditory Remembered (Ar) Instruct someone to "Remember what their mother's voice sounds like.”. Eye movement would be to their left while searching (in an auditory-sense) as her voice is reconstructed in their mind. 8

9. Down and to their Right indicates Feeling / Kinesthetic (F) Ask: "Can you remember the smell of a campfire? “, Eye movement would be down & to their right as they recall a smell, feeling, or taste.

10. Down and To their Left indicates Internal Dialog (Ai) Direction of the eyes as someone "talks to themselves“ – Self Talk. 10

11. How to use this information to Detect Dishonesty Example: Your child asks for a cookie. You say: "What did your mother say?" As he/ she answers," Mom said, “.. Yes.“”, the child looks to the right. What would the child’s eye direction indicate? 11

12. Interviewer • Dress your part • Be observant, strong, aggressive, and powerful • Pay attention to detail, watch, and listen • Carry out the interview with uncrossed arms and legs • Maintain an air of neutrality even though you may dislike the interviewee • Project confidence • Consider the time you have to question the individual • Structure most of your questions open-endedly • Too many Yes/ No questions can seem …

13. Setting • Conference room instead of office or cubicle • Minimize distractions/ interruptions • No windows • If there are, ensure blinds are closed • Neutralizes power • Minimal objects (barriers) on the table • Creates distance, separation, partial concealment • Open table where you can observe interviewee from waist down • Observe feet – fidget or point toward door • Have interviewee farthest and between you & the door

14. Establishing a • Normal Response Pattern • Observe how quickly & honestly they respond • to non-hot questions  • Begin with non-threatening questions: • - How’s long have you been w/ … ? • - What can I get for you? • - What are your concerns about this audit? • - What do you think of …? • - Etc. …   Observe repeated changes from the norm when asking“hot” questions Note: No single behavioral change s/b considered deceptive or a cover up: - It’s a cluster of changesoccurring in microseconds – Be Observant - Regard “gray” or “if-ie” answers as irrelevant    .

15. Stress Indicators (which may not mean they are deceptive or dishonest) Othello’s error

16. “… One that loved not wisely, but too well …”

17. MORAL: Recognize the difference between a Rise in Anxiety and Deception

18. Stress Indicators • (which may not mean they are deceptive or dishonest) • Eye contact is broken • Moving away from the • interviewer towards an “escape” • route (window, door, etc.) • Speech pattern changes • - Slower to faster response • - Significant delay before answering • - Volume and pitch will change • The throwing/ tossing of a hand or arm behind their head • - Usually represents a disregard of the interviewer’s point of view • - OR just after an authoritative sounding statement that may not be so • authoritative 18

19. More Stress Indicators • (which may not mean they are deceptive or dishonest) • Remember Othello’s error • Fingers/ hand over the mouth • indicates a symbolic “don’t talk” • Complains of the room temperature • or treatment when all is well • - Will be chilled easily when stress level goes up • Over use of politeness • - Excessive use of “Mr.” or use of interviewer’s name • Finger drumming may occur, increase, or get harder during hot questioning 19

20. Stress Indicators • (continued) • Women: Will … • Either Gender: Feet or One Foot • During moments of high stress, one of three acts …

21. Physical Changes to Observe When Under Stress • Eyes • Blink rate will increase • Male – 1 blink every four seconds • Female - 1 blink every three seconds • Break eye contact • Looks away when asked a hot question • (finger nails, wall, objects in the room, furniture) • Three/ four white areas of the eye will show when under stress • Nose • Most stress sensitive • Will congest with blood when under stress • Will be touched in some way when under stress

22. Physical Changes to Observe when Under Stress (continued) • Mouth • Biting of the lip is a physical obstruction of speech • Yawning/ putting the hand over the mouth to obstruct speech • Rubbing/ squeezing the lips together • Licking the lips together • Tongue clicking (“dry” mouth) • Foam/ dried saliva at the corners of the mouth • Watching the smoker • The longer it takes to put out the cigarette, the greater the stress • Blowing the smoke downward suggests submissive mode • Blowing smoke rings = a high level of self-confidence • Interviewer must move in closer to reduce confidence • The longer & deeper the draw, the greater the stress • The longer the cigarette burns w/o drawing on it, the greater the • stress

23. Postures and Their Meaning • Leaning back & away from the interviewer w/ crossed • arms and a leg up figure foured = barrier… • Hands on the back of the head/ neck or • scratching the head means … • Gestures to the head in any manner (touches ear, • nose, or chin) .., 23

24. Interactions and Reactions • • A deceptive-dishonest person will get defensive • An innocent person will often go on the offensive when …. • • A dishonest person: • Uncomfortable facing his questioner/ accuser & may • turn his head or body away. • Might unconsciously place objects (book, coffee cup, etc.) between themselves and you, the interviewer.

25. Verbal Context and Content • • A dishonest person will use your words to answer a question. When asked, “Did you take the last cookie?”: “Did I take the last cookie?” • • A statement with a contraction ismore likely to be truthful: “I didn't do it” instead of “I did not do it” • Recall the OJ Simpson trial after the verdict was read and Simpson made his statement to the judge? • • Dishonest people sometimes avoid "lying" by not making direct statements. • • The guilty person may embellish and give irrelevant details to convince you – Can trip themselves up w/ cross examination.

26. Detecting Dishonesty Warning: Sometimes it’s good not to know. After this presentation, you may be disappointed when you later learn that someone whom you’ve trusted has been dishonest with you. • Body Language of Dishonest People: • • Physical expression will be limited & stiff w/ few arm and hand • movements. • Hand, arm and leg movement are inward to their body (take up less • space). • • While making a dishonest statement, will avoid eye contact. • • With increased anxiety, they will touch their face, throat & mouth. • - May even touch or scratch the nose or behind their ear. • Less likely to touch their chest/ heart with an open hand.

27. Interrogative Mode • Frequently use “How sure are you about ...?” after they’ve answered hot questions. • Lean closer to neutralize potential • defensive moves. • Reduces their barriers • Invades their personal space and • dominates them • Heard a ‘tsk’? • - Usually indicates disgust/ ontempt • Heard a “whew” ? • - Suggests they’re glad that p/o discussion or entire discussion is over • - Go back to it: There may be more to be told 27

28. HALF TIME 28

29. Final Words • Looking straight ahead or w/ eyes defocused/ unmoving is another method of visual accessing or searching. • A typical left-handed person would have the opposite meanings for their eye-directions. May not apply all the time; test it out. • Remember: First establish & understand a person’s baseline response/ reaction before concluding they are dishonest strictly on the movement of their eyes. • When there’s a shift from the “norm”, look for a cluster of changesin interviewee responses instead of just one change. • *** Recommendations: “Frogs into Princes - Neuro Linguistic Programming”by Richard Bandler & John Grinder • “The Art of Profiling” by Dan Korum

30. Professional interviews will continue to be a part of audit analysis as long as there are auditees and fieldwork. With enhanced interview skills, you can be assured of gathering factual and credible information!

31. QUESTIONS Wad he say?

32. Contact Information BOVAIRD CONSULTING LLC John Bovaird bovairdbusiness@wt.net 832-457-1624