Adult Sexual Attraction to Children

1. Adult Sexual Attraction to Children Presentation, 12th April 2018 Dr Sarah D. Goode Twitter @SarahDGoode

2. Clarification on title and content “Prevention of child sexual abuse: insights into the minds of offenders” Expectations of this talk – offenders, therapy, crime … I am not a psychologist, criminologist nor therapist I am a sociologist and a researcher. My interest is in the sociocultural context within which adult sexual attraction to children, and adult sexual contact with children, happens

3. Introduction Welcome! Trigger warning – be aware some of this stuff is very challenging. The impact on you may be unexpected An issue which affects all of us By the end of this talk you will think differently about paedophiles

4. Outline of this presentation Time for some questions at the end. Please ask for clarification if required during presentation, but please jot down any comments and questions and keep until the end. Standard thinking about paedophiles My research into online 'pro-paedophile' communities Basic information on paedophiles – population-size, diagnosis, treatment Child sexual abuse and the harm caused Arguments for adult sexual contact with children The current generation and the next generation of paedophiles

5. Typical Portrayal of Paedophiles 'Because paedophiles are organised, we must be better organised. Because they are cunning, we must be more intelligent. Because they are many, we must have the support of many more'

6. NSPCC Leaflet If we represent child sexual abusers as other than us … … Children will misrecognise what is going on and cannot protect themselves or ask for help … The adults around the child will misrecognise what is going on and cannot protect the child or confront the adult … The abuser cannot see himself in that image of the 'other' and therefore finds it harder to label what is happening as 'abuse', stop his behaviour or seek help

7. Roger Took A respected art historian, travel writer, and museum curator. Former director of the Barbican Art Gallery, and fellow of the Royal Geographical Society. Arrested in 2007 for sexual abuse of his step-granddaughters; participation in detailed online discussions about the torture, rape and murder of little girls; and possession of 100+ photographs of the torture of children.

8. Roger Took In 2008, Pat Cleary went public about the behaviour of her former husband. Some of Took’s friends and colleagues attacked her for speaking out. They could not put the image of the highly cultivated man they knew together with such horrific crimes. After his conviction, one of his female friends wrote reprovingly to Cleary: “We have no right to judge and to destroy a person’s life when he wants to live a different life.”

9. A Post on GirlChat “I'm curious what people think about me. I've had people actually say that i love girls and I'm so good to girls, not boys. Those same people do nothing to restrict me from my girls and even help me and thank me for spending time with them. But, I can not imagine these same people being so positive and supportive if they thought these girls were making me have boners when I wake up thinking about them. and I act like a love sick puppy around my big girls, so how can they not see the romantic nature of my feelings so, do they see me as sexually neuter since I have no adult girlfriends, and therefore safe around little girls. romance is OK if you have no sexual interest? or have they been so brainwashed by the media about the evil pedophiles that since they can't reconcile that with what they know about me, cognitive dissonance prevents me from being a pedophile in their minds? I wonder what people really think. I know they don't think I'm normal.”

10. Benjamin Rabbit and the Stranger Danger (1985)

11. At least Savile's crimes have opened up a public conversation about child sexual abuse and its aftermath

12. My previous research: I wanted to explore what was really going on Drug and alcohol-dependent mothers, “How could anyone do that to a child?” How 'junkie mums' dealt with a stigmatized and very hidden identity and how they managed that identity among their families and communities New (but obvious) findings ... including what professionals were doing sometimes made it more likely children would be harmed

13. Paedophile research: I wanted to explore what was really going on Adults sexually attracted to children, “How could anyone do that to a child?” How 'paedo pervs' deal with a stigmatized and very hidden identity and how they manage that identity among their families and communities New (but obvious) findings ... including what professionals are doing sometimes makes it more likely children will be harmed

14. Thought experiment If you found yourself having sexual thoughts about children, what would you do? Newspaper articles: 'sick perv', 'monster', 'evil paedo' Is that me? I know that isn't me!! But maybe it is? Am I a monster? Internet: Google the word 'paedophile' 2) Go to Wikipedia 3) Follow external links

15. The first major (legal) 'girl-lover community' website

16. “We have our own language, our own customs, our own websites. That's a community.” ('Gus', quoted in Understanding & Addressing, 2009:135)

17. Logo for my online research project

18. VirPed, 2009 – 2018?

19. Surprising findings? Many self-identified paedophiles live in the community, unknown to any authorities Paedophiles are not a different order of beings We are all moral agents, we all make choices Some make destructive choices; some stay law-abiding; some do their best to do good in the world An unknown proportion of paedophiles do not act on their sexual attraction

20. Basic Information on Paedophilia Clinical definition of paedophilia Male and female paedophiles How many paedophiles are there? Range of sexual attraction Continuum rather than discrete Possible causes of paedophilia Can paedophilia be cured?

21. Basic information on child sexual abuse(How Safe are Our Children? 2017, NSPCC) Annual statistics for England, 2015 – 2016: Almost 38,000 recorded sexual offences against under-16s in total, of which 5,600 were rape of under-13s Each week in England: 730 recorded sexual offences against children under 16 Of which over 100 are rape of a child under 13 (In addition, 12,000 annual recorded offences of viewing illegal images of children)

22. Thinking about these statistics Around a third (or more) of all sexual offences don't get reported, so the figure is more likely to be around 150 children under 13 per week in England enduring rape What is the social and emotional context around the child? At least 90% of sexual offences against children are committed by someone known to them (often a family-member) In order for a rape or other sexual offence by someone known to them to occur, the child is likely to have been unsafe for a significant time

23. Subtle intrusion = Creepy: 'Having a creeping feeling in the flesh''Causing an unpleasant feeling of fear or unease' Creeping in somewhere they are not wanted, like an insect or a spider. Doing harm furtively, at a deep level, deep inside the psyche of the child We often have a horror, a phobia, of rats or snakes or spiders – things that creep in furtively and are hard to push away. They're not violent, but we feel a revulsion because they shouldn't be there The adult may think they are 'only' kissing, or licking, or fingering – where's the harm in that? But the intrusion, the invasion of privacy, of personal space, of autonomy and self-determination, that's where the harm is. It's a profound psychic attack. It's not overt

24. Creepiness and disorientation: A recording of Jimmy Savile live on air “He is clearly wrestling physically with the girl, attempting to get her to repeat after him: “You, Jimmy Savile, are the only one in my life”. The girl, who has previously said she prefers Noel Edmonds, sparkily retorts: “You are not the only one in my life!” Savile continues brusquely pestering, ignoring her requests to “Get off!”. You can hear a girl struggling to hold on to her dignity: her voice is growing nervous and breathless, and eventually she says more bluntly: “Get off my backside!” At the word “backside” Savile affects pious shock, even though he, a grown man, is forcefully touching a young girl in a way she does not want and compelling her to say things she does not agree with. “Eh?” he says reprovingly: “I beg your pardon? In front of your mummy and daddy? Goodness gracious.” Her parents are there too, you see: they can just about be heard in the background, laughing along politely with the prince of BBC broadcasting.”

25. Harm cannot be reduced to a legal or sociocultural construct The harm caused to children by adult sexual contact with children is not dependent on the social context The fact that child-marriage may be legal, or rape may be condoned, does not remove the harmful impact People sometimes point to other cultures or to other periods in history (and even to other species) to argue for the benefits of 'age-discrepant sexual friendships' or 'intergenerational intimacy'

26. Peter Tatchell, 1997, 2012, 2017http://www.petertatchell.net/lgbt_rights/age_of_consent/Under-age-sex-Statement-of-clarification-by-Peter-Tatchell.htm(posted 28.2.2017, deleted from his website as on 6.12.2017, now expanded undated) [A recent book, Dares to Speak: Historical and Contemporary Perspectives on Boy-Love, offers] a rational, informed perspective on sexual relations between younger and older people [and] they document examples of societies where consenting inter-generational sex is considered normal, beneficial and enjoyable by young and old alike. Prof Gilbert Herdt points to the Sambia tribe of Papua New Guineau, where all young boys have sex with older warriors as part of their initiation into manhood. Far from being harmed, Prof Herdt says the boys grow up to be happy, well-adjusted husbands and fathers. The positive nature of some child-adult sexual relationships is not confined to non-Western cultures. Several of my friends – gay and straight, male and female – had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy. While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful. (Tatchell, The Guardian newspaper, 1997: 22)

27. Where do these views come from? Came into mainstream culture largely through the work of Kinsey in the late 1940s, and many other authors since.

28. The continuing work of the Kinsey Institute, 1947 - 2017 “Of course, we knew when we interviewed the pedophiles that they would continue the activity, but we didn’t do anything about that. There couldn’t have been any research if we turned them in. … It was illegal and we knew it was illegal” Paul Gebhard (Director of The Kinsey Institute after Kinsey's death)

29. A 'very young' girl raped by an adult man … but it's the 'paranoia' over 'child molestation' that does the 'damage for life' There are two instances in which – a young girl – didn't complain – they agreed to the sexual contact – but they found it very painful and yelled out. This was because they were very young and had small genitalia and [the paedophile] was a grown man with enormous genitalia, and there was a fit problem. … Pedophilia is an almost non-existent kind of crime. And the thing that he [Kinsey] hated most about it is that people used words like 'child molestation'. 'Child molestation'! What is that? No-one knows. … As Kinsey said, by this kind of paranoia, you do the child more damage for life than all the pedophiles in the world would do. (Transcript of interview by Clarence Tripp, Kinsey's official research photographer and long-term co-worker, in documentary, Kinsey's Paedophiles, Tate, 1998)

30. Three main arguments that adult sexual contact with children is harmless Harm is context-dependent – there are cultures / times / situations where it is not only harmless but positively beneficial for adults to have sexual contact with children of any age (from birth onwards) Harm is caused by social reaction - not by adult sexual contact with children per se, but by the overblown hysterical reactions of 'sex-negative' people Alternative narratives are censored - if harm does exist, it is extremely minor and rare but the narrative of happy consensual sex is censored by the 'victimological child-abuse industry', ie. social workers, child protection charities, feminists, survivors organisations etc.

31. Example of narrative of happy, consensual intergenerational sex This is the main book that claims to provide research evidence that little boys are happy to have sexual relationships with adult men. The author / researcher appears to have been part of the group he studied, and was funded by them.

32. Two conflicting discourses: 'sexual radicalism' and 'child protection' In universities and in professional life, there are two conflicting strands of thought: one about human sexuality (with little or no interest in child protection) and one about child protection (with little or no interest in human sexuality) In one, all sex is fun and unproblematic: pain and harm is silenced. In the other, sex is pathologised: sexual fun and exploration is silenced. This feeds into our general sociocultural confusion about how we should respond to paedophiles and child sexual abuse.

33. We make sense of paedophiles through these two frames of reference Kinsey-based frame of reference: sex (or orgasm) is the most important good, trumping any other good such as the ability to give consent. There is no intrinsic harm in sex. All children are sexual and want sex. Thus, adults having sex with children is a harmless or positively beneficial situation. Child protection-based frame of reference: sex is good only when it is consensual, both parties are equals, are well-informed and developmentally ready. Thus, adults having sex with children is intrinsically harmful as those conditions can never be met in that situation.

34. South Park: Cartman Joins NAMBLA “What we need is proof that young boys want to be members of NAMBLA. That they want love from us. We need a poster child, to show the world that it is a beautiful and wonderful thing”

35. South Park: Cartman Joins NAMBLA NAMBLA leader: Our forefathers came to this country because they believed in an idea. An idea called "freedom." They wanted to live in a place where a group couldn't be prosecuted for their beliefs. Where a person can live the way he chooses to live. You see us as being perverted because we're different from you. People are afraid of us, because they don't understand. And sometimes it's easier to persecute than to understand. ...

36. South Park: Cartman Joins NAMBLA Kyle: Dude. You have sex with children. Stan: Yeah. You know, we believe in equality for everybody, and tolerance, and all that gay stuff, but dude, fuck you. Kyle: Seriously.

37. Key messages to young paedophiles Both society in general and paedophiles individually negotiate their way through these conflicting ways of understanding sex. Currently, there is no straightforward message. I want any young people who have become aware of their sexual interest in children to hear the following key messages: 1) You are not a monster and you are not alone 2) You are not responsible for your feelings: you ARE responsible for your actions 3) There is effective help and support available 4) Adult sexual contact with children (including viewing illegal images) is harmful and illegal 5) There are role-models of other people just like you living successful, law-abiding lives

38. Example: What happens when society gets it wrong Alex was 18 when he died. He had joined the Virtuous Pedophiles peer-support group in January 2018 and made a number of positive posts. In the middle of February he shared that he had come out to his parents. His mother cried while his father kicked him out of the house and told him to kill himself. He committed suicide a month later because he felt so hopeless, but in his helplessness he also sexually abused an 11 year old girl in the block of flats where he lived.

39. Intervening to stop the FIRST offence Paedophiles typically realise their sexual attraction when they themselves are around 13 – 17 Society currently assumes they will become abusers: this is a prediction, not a deterrent Most do not begin offending until late 20s / early 30s We therefore have a window of opportunity to engage with self-defined young paedophiles and encourage them to stay non-offending Offer help and support BEFORE the first offence takes place.

40. Example: What happens when society gets it right Dave, who had been struggling with troubling thoughts about touching a child for years, and had been feeling suicidal, said: "It was such a relief to find StopSO, and to finally have a place to talk about my attraction. I feel so much stronger and more able to cope. I realise attraction and action are different, and I am much safer now around children, and I have strategies to get out of difficult situations. I have even been able to tell one of my friends, who has children, so he now understands why I don't visit him when the children are there. That conversation went okay, thanks to StopSO."

41. Asking (or telling) paedophiles not to offend Could you do it? What would make you decide to be non-offending? What would make you change your mind if you were offending? What would motivate you to stay non-offending? How would you personally choose and then maintain (over many decades) a successful and satisfying self-identity as a 'virtuous' or non-offending paedophile?

42. Thought Experiment: What would have most impact for you in stopping abusive behaviour, and in maintaining an abuse-free lifestyle? Fear - worry over (1) the potential risk to yourself, or (2) to those you care about? Empathy - realising at gut level the entirely preventable harm caused to vulnerable young others? Positive social cues - having a supportive group around you? Positive self-identity - having an enjoyable lifestyle which fully satisfies you without needing to harm others?

43. Thought experiment: Fear - worry over potential risk to yourself? “There are two kinds of cardiologists: vegans, and those who haven't read the data.” (Dr Kim Williams, cardiologist and former president, American College of Cardiology)

44. Thought experiment: Fear - worry over potential risk to those you care about? “Animal agriculture is the leading cause of species extinction, ocean dead zones, water pollution, and habitat destruction.” (www.cowspiracy.com/facts/)

45. Thought experiment: Empathy - realising at gut level the entirely preventable harm caused to vulnerable young others?

46. Thought experiment: Positive social cues - having a supportive group around you?

47. Thought experiment: Positive self-identity - having an enjoyable lifestyle which fully satisfies you without needing to harm others?

48. Primal drives of aggression, sex and eating … all mediated by knowledge and compassion

49. This generation of young paedophiles I am Yarrow, a 19 year old trans man and a MAP. I advocate against child abuse and for the destigmatization of pedophilia so that MAPs can get the help we need. 22 year old from UK. Non-offending, anti-contact paedophile. I didn't choose to be sexually attracted to children, I do choose not to act on it. I'm a 20 year old, anti-contact pedophile. I don't support the abuse of children under any circumstances. Pedophilia is not a verb, it's not the act of abuse. 20-something, and a Minor Attracted Person, from the UK. I'm anti-contact, non-offending, right until the end!

50. Recap: A Post on GirlChat “I'm curious what people think about me. I've had people actually say that i love girls and I'm so good to girls, not boys. Those same people do nothing to restrict me from my girls and even help me and thank me for spending time with them. But, I can not imagine these same people being so positive and supportive if they thought these girls were making me have boners when I wake up thinking about them. and I act like a love sick puppy around my big girls, so how can they not see the romantic nature of my feelings so, do they see me as sexually neuter since I have no adult girlfriends, and therefore safe around little girls. romance is OK if you have no sexual interest? or have they been so brainwashed by the media about the evil pedophiles that since they can't reconcile that with what they know about me, cognitive dissonance prevents me from being a pedophile in their minds? I wonder what people really think. I know they don't think I'm normal.”