Herodotus and Thucydides

1. Herodotus and Thucydides

2. Overview • Intro • Herodotus • Thucydides • Comparison

3. Intro • “History” vs. Homer; what is history? • Herodotus vs. Thucydides • Historia: Researches/Inquiries

4. Herodotus: Background • Biographical Background • The Histories • Last Four Books on the Persian Wars • First Five Books on the Mediterranean/Persian Word • Ethnographic Excurses: “Father of Ethnography”

5. Herodotus’ Ethnographic Excurses The Agathyrsi have their women in common, so that they may all be brothers, and, as members of a single family, be able to live together without jealousy and hatred. The Argippaeans are bald. Sacred prostitution is a custom in Babylon (more...). Lydian men don't like to be seen naked. The Neuri can change into werewolves. Every five years, the Thracians choose one of their number by lot and send him to God as a messenger, with instructions to ask him for whatever they may happen to want; to effect the dispatch, some of them with javelins in their hands arrange themselves in a suitable position, while others take hold of the messenger by his hands and feet, and swing him up into the air in such a way as to make him fall upon the upturned points of the javelins. (The Histories, Book Four, section 94)

6. Herodotus: Approach to History • Opening: • “These are the researches (historia) of Herodotus of Halicarnassus, which he publishes in the hope of preserving for all time the memory of what men have done; so that the great and noteworthy deeds of both Greeks and non-Greeks shall never lose their proper glory; and to record here the origins of the conflict.” • Distinguishes between sources. • Gathers multiple versions of event

7. Herodotus: Multiple Viewpoints Concerning the nature of the river, I was not able to gain any information either from the priests or from others. I was particularly anxious to learn from them why the Nile, at the commencement of the summer solstice, begins to rise, and continues to increase for a hundred days… Some of the Greeks, however, wishing to get a reputation for cleverness, have offered explanations of the phenomena of the river, for which they have accounted in three different ways. Two of these I do not think it worth while to speak of, further than simply to mention what they are. One pretends that the Etesian winds cause the rise of the river… The second opinion is even more unscientific… The third explanation, which is very much more plausible than either of the others, is positively the furthest from the truth… Perhaps, after censuring all the opinions that have been put forward on this obscure subject, one ought to propose some theory of one's own. I will therefore proceed to explain what I think to be the reason of the Nile's swelling in the summer time. During the winter, the sun is driven out of his usual course by the storms, and removes to the upper parts of Libya. This is the whole secret in the fewest possible words; for it stands to reason that the country to which the Sun-god approaches the nearest, and which he passes most directly over, will be scantest of water, and that there the streams which feed the rivers will shrink the most.

8. Herodotus: Approach to History • Opening: • Distinguishes between sources. • Gathers multiple versions of event • History as entertaining narrative

9. Herodotus: Beliefs About History • History as product of divine AND human forces. • “for Herodotus history still included heavenly intervention, cosmic justice, and divine retribution.” • Uses History to Demonstrate Themes • The Hubris of Power • Freedom vs. Despotism • Solon and Croesus

10. Thucydides: Background • Biography • History of the Peloponnesian War • “Indeed this was the greatest movement yet known in history, not only of the Hellenes, but of a large part of the barbarian world- I had almost said of mankind.” • Didn’t Finish

11. Thucydides: Approach to History One will not go wrong if he accepts the inferences I have drawn from the facts as I have related them, and not as they are sung by the poets who embellish and exaggerate them—or as they are strung together by popular historians with a view to making them not more truthful, but more attractive to their audiences; and considering that we are dealing with ancient history, whose unverified events have, over the course of time, made their way into the incredible realms of mythology, one will find that my conclusions, derived as they are from the best available evidence, are accurate enough. My narrative, perhaps, will seem less pleasing to some listeners because it lacks an element of fiction. Those, however, who want to see things clearly as they were and, given human nature, as they will one day be again, more or less, may find this book a useful basis for judgment. My work was composed not as a prizewinning exercise in elocution, to be heard and then forgotten, but as a work of permanent value.

12. Thucydides: Approach to History • Based on evidence, unlike poets and storytellers • As to the events of the war, I have not written them down as I heard them from just anybody, nor as I thought they must have occurred, but have consistently described what I myself saw or have been able to learn from others after going over each event in as much detail as possible.

13. Thucydides: Approach to History • Based on evidence, unlike poets and storytellers • Acknowledges Bias in Sources • I have found this task to be extremely arduous, since those who were present at these actions gave varying reports on the same event, depending on their sympathies and their memories.

14. Thucydides: Approach to History • Based on evidence, unlike poets and storytellers • Acknowledges Bias in Sources • Does Create Dialogue • As to the speeches of the participants, either when they were about to enter the war or after they were already in it, it has been difficult for me and for those who reported to me to remember exactly what was said. I have, therefore, written what I thought the speakers must have said given the situation they were in, while keeping as close as possible to the gist of what was actually said.

15. Thucydides: Approach to History • Based on evidence, unlike poets and storytellers • Acknowledges Bias in Sources • Does Create Dialogue • Strict Chronological Approach • Provides “Objective” Account • Cold, Logical, first “scientific” historian • History: Product of Human Forces • Parallel to AeschylusSophocles

16. Thucydides: Modern Perspective • Generally Preferred to Herodotus by Modern Historians • Truth over a good story • Model in Political Science: Analyzes causes

17. Thucydides: Modern Perspective • Generally Preferred to Herodotus by Modern Historians • Truth over a good story • Model in Political Science: Analyzes causes • Critiques • Claims to Objectivity Misguided • Downplays Megarian Decree • Almost no focus on Ethnography/Women

18. Compare/Contrast • Similarities • Research as fundamental to history • Both looked for “natural” explanations, to varying degrees • Both looked for causes • Differences • Thucydides leaves Gods out • One objective account (Thuc) vs. many accounts (Herod) • Colder Analysis (Thuc) vs. Fun Stories (Herod)