Plato’s G ORGIAS

1. Plato’s GORGIAS Plato’s Gorgias shows Socrates in dialogue with the great rhetorician, one of his students, and an aspiring Athenian politician on the theme of the good life.

2. GORGIAS Background: role of rhetoric (rhetorike) or oratory in the world of Greek city-state (polis) • Prologue: Socrates arrives at home of Callicles • Logos: Socrates vs. Gorgias, Polus, Callicles • What is a rhetorician?(447-466) – truth and persuasion • we cannot know what he “is” unless we know if he has an ‘art’ • What good is rhetoric?(466-81) - ethics • includes arguments re: justice, freedom and eudaimonia • What is the good life? (481-527) – ethics and metaethics • Socrates’ refutation of “law of nature”: egoism, hedonism, and aristocracy, and the myth of heaven and hell at the end • Epilogue: Callicles should first choose the path of ethics, then turn to politics, to save his soul Each stage in the dialogue ‘reveals’ a deeper ethical conflict

3. Rhetoric = greatest power, i.e. freedom and rule Rhetoricians = able to persuade juries, voters, leaders Rhetoricians dominate and rule society Rhetoric = little or no power (to benefit self/other) Rhetoricians = unable to teach right politics or self-knowledge Rhetoricians corrupt society and themselves What is the power of rhetoric?Gorgias vs. Socrates

4. Socratic Elenchus of Gorgias • Is Rhetoric = Skill, like skill in using weapons? -Yes. • Teachers should give students weapons only if they know they’ll use them properly? –I guess. • Therefore teachers of R should know their students will use it properly before teaching them? –Ok, yes. • Therefore teachers of R must (a) make sure their students are ethical, or (b) teach them ethics, before teaching them R?-I guess. • So teachers of R are responsible for their students, if they misuse their power? –I guess. Does Gorgias ‘give in’ to Socrates? why?

5. Part I: Socrates and Gorgias What is rhetoric? Gorgias Socrates What does real art (techne) involve? Knowledge of why/how it works Aim at real good of client What would a ‘real art of rhetoric’ involve? Aim at real good of person Explain/justify its truth Does it exist? = Socratic dialectic? • It is b/c he regards it as so powerful S can make his arguments stick • Why does he ‘give in’ to Socrates? • B/c he does not want to oppose conventional ethical belief • Why does Socrates ask re: rhetoric and math? • B/c math ‘persuades’ not just to belief but “belief with reason”

6. What is the power of rhetoric? Where do the myths stop and the realities begin?

7. Socrates’ Great Speech: True vs. Counterfeit Arts (464-66) False arts of body & soul: • corrupt, don’t aim at the good • lack knowledge of their method and subject • create a distorted society, reflect false values True arts of body & soul: • benefit, aim at the human good • possess knowledge of their subject and method • create a well-ordered society, based on true values • Apply to our society • How are business, the professions and the media corrupted? • Libertarian “free market” model of social responsibility • Myths = ‘products’ of social beliefs and desires • Socrates: • Everyone has a moral responsibility to aim at the good for their clients • Everyone has a moral responsibility to know why they rrecommend and communicate it to their clients

8. Socrates: true ‘rhetoric’ moves FROM unexamined beliefs  TO examined, reasoned beliefs

9. Part II: Socrates and Polus (“Colt”) • Student of Gorgias • Realizes his teacher was ashamed to argue it may be in your self-interest to do injustice, even if it is less honorable • Thinks of rhetorician and tyrant as having the greatest power and goods

10. What would you do? • You are in an experiment. If you push the button, you will receive $5M tax free. But somewhere in India, a poor man will die. • Would it be foolish? • Would it be wrong? • What would you do? Consider if: • You would never be punished. • You became convinced there was no afterlife, heaven or hell. • You were told that after you pushed the button, you would be hypnotized, so you would not remember doing it, and never have to feel guilty. Would you change your decision?

11. A critical distinction S: How can rhetoricians or tyrants have great power in states, unless Polus can prove that they do as they will? --Why, have you not already said that they do as they think best? S: And I say so still. --Then surely they do as they will? S: I deny it. --But they do what they think best? S: Yes. --That, Socrates, is monstrous and absurd. • What is Socrates’ distinction? • Do what ‘seems fit’= apparent good • Do what you want = your real good • Is it valid? • Socrates: people who choose against their real good are not truly free.

12. Socratic Agon with Polus • Is rhetoric powerful? (466-74): rhetoric is powerful only if it leads to real self-benefit • It is better to suffer than do injustice (474-76): Socrates throws him on if it is more shameful to do injustice than suffer it • It is better to be punished for injustice than get away with it (476-80)

13. Contrasting Value Systems Soc. …doing injustice is the greatest of evils. Pol. The greatest? Is not suffering injustice a greater evil? Soc. Certainly not. Pol. Then would you rather suffer than do injustice? Soc. I should not like either, but if I must choose between them, I would rather suffer than do. … Pol. Socrates, would say you do not even know if the great king is a happy man? Soc. I do not know how he stands in the matter of education (paideia) and justice. Pol. What! does happiness consist in this? Soc. Yes, indeed, Polus, that is my view; the men and women who are fine and good are happy, and the unjust and evil are miserable. 469b-471a • Socrates’ view has been calledthe“sovereignty of virtue,” insofar as he makes moral integrity prior to every other kind of good, including power, pleasure, even life itself • Polus: the good = • Rhetoric • Power/pleasure • Socrates: the good = • Education • Justice

14. First elenchus of Polus (474b-76a) • It is more shameful to do injustice than to suffer it. • Shameful, ignoble things are painful or evil. • If doing injustice is > shame than suffering it, it must either be > pain or > evil to do it. • It is not > pain to do it--it is > pain to suffer. • Therefore, it is worse & > evil to do injustice than to suffer it. • Valid? • Agree with it? • If not, why not?

15. Second elenchus of Polus (476-80) It is better to be punished for injustice than get away with it Let GP = getting just punishment, ~GP = avoiding just punishment, A = admirable/honorable, > = more, G = good/beneficial, PS = pleasurable • GP is >A than ~GP (476e) • >A = >G or >PS (477a) • GP = >G or >PS (477a) • But GP is not >PS (477d) • Therefore GP is >G (477e) Which Socrates explains in terms of the good of the soul. Q’s: • Is GP more A if you are not admired? • Is >A = >G for the ind’l or the community?

16. How does Socratic Dialogue work? • Does an audience matter? • Assumes Re: ethical truth? • Requires you to? Why? • Examines what Re: your beliefs? • Refutation: A, A implies B, B implies C, but C implies ~A! • Can it lead to truth? To knowledge? Gorg. 508-509 • Methodological vs. metaphysical objectivism (in ethics) – see 507-509

17. Part III: Socrates and CalliclesCallicles: Polus refuted because he, too, ‘compromised’ with morality • Callicles’ view (481-492): • Ethics and ‘law of nature’: both better and more honorable to do than suffer injustice • Nature vs. Convention: • Egoism: rational to seek own good • Hedonism: good = pleasure • Aristocracy : the better and more intelligent should rule over and have more • Socrates vs. hedonism (492-499): • leaky jar (492-95); • pleasure & movement (495-7) • pleasure & courage (497-9) • Moral metaphysics: the good, self-care, psychic order (499-513): • virtue establishes ‘good order’ in the soul • True art of politics (513-523): • current politics is ‘distempered’ • Myth of the afterlife (523-27)

18. Callicles: nature vs. morality, the individual vs. society Better and more noble to do than suffer Society teaches myths, slave morality Nature = war: strong dominate the world Courage = satisfy desires; make your truth Philosophy: not for real men Is he right?

19. Competing Value Systems Callicles Socrates Enlightened or humanist naturalism = do what  moral/intellectual fulfillment Eudaimonism = the good is human fulfillment, which requires virtue Natural aristocracy = those who are wise should rule others and themselves, giving to each their due • ‘Darwinian’ naturalism= do what  your own pleasure & power • Vulgar hedonism = the good is pleasure; the more the better • Natural aristocracy = those who are ‘natural’ dominators should rule and have more

21. Socrates vs. V-Egoism • Vulgar egoism = always do what will gain you the greatest benefit in terms of worldly goods such as pleasure, wealth and power. • Callicles: this = a rational ethical philosophy; Socrates’ willingness to sacrifice such goods when they conflict with moral principle is foolish and contrary to happiness. Socrates vs. V-egoism: • V-egoists are not rational*, if they realize there is a moral rule everyone should follow, e.g. vs. lying or stealing or violence, but want to do it themselves. • V-egoists can never have real friendship, because other persons might have to be used as means to self-gain. *can they will others seek their self-interest?

22. Isn’t ‘the good’ some form of pleasure? • Isn’t it obvious “the good” is some form of pleasure? • For everything we value in itself, must be something we enjoy. • Granted, there are things we value things we do not enjoy, but only are means to things that are good in themselves. • So the good for every human being individually, and human beings in groups, must be pleasure. • So ‘the’ good must = the maximum of pleasure, whatever form it may take.

23. Would you choose the wire? • It is 2122. Normal life has become very difficult in the 21st century. However, a new option occurs: at legal age, people can choose to “drop out” and live a fantasy life until they die. This life includes visual and hedonic stimuli. It answers the human quest for happiness. Do you choose the wire?

24. Arguments on Hedonism What is Socrates’ argument re: the “leaky jar”? (492-95) Why would Callicles regard this as a rhetorical trick? What is Socrates’ argument re: pleasure and change? (497-99) Why would Callicles reject this as fallacious? What is Socrates’ argument re: pleasure and courage? (495-97) Why would Callicles be impressed with this argument? How might he argue against it? What are the implications when Callicles grants there are ‘higher’ and ‘lower’ pleasures? 499b Does this  an ‘objective’ ethics, ‘order’ in the soul? (rule by reason over desires for pleasure and power) Does this refute him?

25. Socratic-Platonic ethics: the higher nature of man and the kosmos Society blurs the distinction between virtue vs. success Real happiness = virtue, psychic order Psychic order: • Reason rules for ‘true self’ • Ego and emotions follow • Appetite is curbed Better = • To suffer vs. doing wrong • To conflict with society vs. to conflict with one’s conscience or contradict oneself Human rational nature = flourishes in • Friendship and Love (community) • Knowledge of truth (philosophy) • Just/rational action (justice) • Disciplined appetite (moderation) • Conquered fear (courage)

26. Socratic Ethics • [Every person should pursue what reason determines is good for them = rational egoism] • The good = eudaimonia or “flourishing self-actualization” [eudaimonism] (468b, 488b, 500cd) • Every person [really] wants [wills] the good (466-71) • The true good is not maximum pleasure (492b-499b, 499b-503d), but a well-ordered soul (504b-507a) (oriented to truth, rational life with others, friendship and material needs) • The virtues make the soul well-ordered (507a-508a); make the soul want truth and justice, moderation and courage • Therefore everyone wants a virtuous soul (508b). (Followed by new understanding of value of rhetoric and confirmation of arguments with Polus (508b-513a)

27. Contradiction re: Socratic knowledge? Ethical skepticism Ethical rationalism “These conclusions [re: the good life] I’d say are held down by arguments of iron and adamant …no one can say anything else without becoming ridiculous.” (508e) How might Socrates’ defend himself? • “I don’t say these things [re: the good life] with any knowledge at all; no, I’m searching with you...” (506a) • “My logos is always the same: I don’t know how these things are...” (509a)

28. Socratic-Platonic Politics Background: Athenian leaders like Pericles regarded as their greatest leaders of Democracy • What is the goal of the true politician? • Virtuous citizens, not wealth and power • What is are the means of the true politician? • Persuasion or constraint • How apply this to laws? • Vs. imperialism • Pro education

29. Epilogue and Mythos: Socratic-Platonic Religion • The souls of the just go to the Isles of the Blessed, the souls of the wicked to Tartarus. “This faith is true.” (524b) • Socrates seeks to “practice [this] truth” (526d) • What does ‘truth’ mean here? • Is this myth part of Socratic-Platonic politics?